Discussion of movies and ReelThoughts topics

It is currently Sat May 25, 2013 8:43 pm





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Vertigo tops Citizen Kane! 
Author Message
Director

Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:44 pm
Posts: 1167
Post Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
new Sight & Sound list is out, Vertigo topped Kane by a large margin. And Tokyo Story topped Kane in the directors poll. who would've thunk it? I didn't think this was ever possible 20 years ago(Kane finishing lower than 1 in either list) looks like the much larger group of voters this year may have been a factor(though Vertigo was pretty close behind Kane in '02)

This year they counted Godfather & Godfather II as two separate films, while in 2002 they counted them as one. That explains the drop in this list(in '02 they held the #4 spot, this year Godfather was 21 & Godfather II was 31)


Quote:
LONDON – Orson Welles' Citizen Kane no longer enjoys the moniker of greatest film of all time, a plaudit it has held for 50 years.

The movie has occupied top billing in the British Film Institute published magazine Sight & Sound's once-a-decade international critics’ film poll since 1962.

But that crown, according to Sight & Sound's 2012 survey of 846 movie experts who participate, has now passed to Alfred Hitchcock’s Vertigo.

Made in 1958, the psychological suspense drama first entered the Sight & Sound poll in 1982 in seventh place -- two years after its director died. Largely ignored by the critics for most of his career, its rise in the poll is testament to how Hitchcock’s reputation has steadily increased over time.

Starring Kim Novak and James Stewart, Vertigo trumped Citizen Kane by 34 votes this time around; it was five votes shy of Kane 10 years ago.

And 1941's Kane, second in the survey, also missed out on the top spot in a separate poll of 358 film directors from all over the world, including Martin Scorsese, Quentin Tarantino, Francis Ford Coppola, Woody Allen and Mike Leigh, whose survey chose Yasujiro Ozu’s Tokyo Story (1953) as its greatest.

The critics poll, first conducted in 1952, marks the magazine's seventh and its most ambitious to date.

The 10-yearly survey aims to rule out fluctuations in taste and asks participants to interpret "greatest" in any way they chose.

That could mean whether the film was most important to film history, represented the aesthetic pinnacle of achievement or perhaps had a personal impact on their own view of cinema.

This year’s poll sample of 846 film critics, academics, distributors, writers and programmers from all corners of the globe was the biggest ever. They voted for 2,045 movie titles overall.

That compares with the 144 that were asked 10 years ago.

The pollsters said the huge increase in numbers "reflects the impact of the Internet and proliferation and increased influence of film commentators using this new medium."

Another fallout from this year's top 10 is Sergei Eisenstein's Battleship Potemkin, a 1925 film that has appeared in the top 10 for all of the poll's 60 years in various slots.

Three silent films make 2012's top 10 -- Dziga Vertov’s documentary Man With a Movie Camera (1929) is a new addition, while 1927's Sunrise, directed by F.W. Murnau, moves up to fifth and The Passion of Joan of Arc re-enters – ousting Eisenstein's picture.

Organizers said the changes might be explained by the availability of the films on DVD and the resurgence in popularity in recent years for different kinds of live accompaniment to the films, from The Alloy Orchestra and Michael Nyman to prog rock.

Ozu’s Tokyo Story is in third spot and Jean Renoir’s La Règle du jeu (1939) occupies fourth.

Vertov’s film is the first documentary to make the top 10 since 1952.

Carl Theodor Dreyer’s The Passion of Joan of Arc (1927) is ninth, while the most recent film in the top 10 is Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) in sixth place. John Ford's The Searchers (1956) hits the seventh spot while Federico Fellini's 8 1/2 (1963) lies 10th.

The Critics’ Top 10 Greatest Films of All Time

1) "Vertigo" (Alfred Hitchcock, 1958)
2) "Citizen Kane" (Orson Welles, 1941)
3) "Tokyo Story" (Yasujiro Ozo, 1953)
4) "Rules of the Game" (Jean Renoir, 1939)
5) "Sunrise" (F.W. Murnau, 1927)
6) "2001: A Space Odyssey" (Stanley Kubrick, 1968)
7) "The Searchers" (John Ford, 1956)
8) "Man with a Movie Camera" (Dziga Vertov, 1929)
9) "The Passion of Joan of Arc" (Carl Theodor Dreyer, 1928)
10) "8 1/2" (Federico Fellini, 1963)

The Directors’ Top 10 Greatest Films of All Time

1) "Tokyo Story" (Ozu, 1953)
2) "2001: A Space Odyssey" (Kubrick, 1968), "Citizen Kane" (Welles, 1941) [tie]
4) "8 ½" (Fellini, 1963)
5) "Taxi Driver" (Martin Scorsese, 1980)
6) "Apocalypse Now" (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)
7) "The Godfather" (Coppola, 1972), "Vertigo" (Hitchcock, 1958) [tie]
9) "Mirror" (Andrei Tarkovsky, 1974)
10) "Bicycle Thieves" (Vittorio De Sica, 1948)



would love to see a reelthoughts about this, I'm sure Ebert is preparing something.


Last edited by calvero on Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.



Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:10 pm
Profile
Critic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 5888
Location: Easton, MD
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
Man with a Video Camera? Jesus Christ that movie is like a film school experiment. I like the directors' list more

_________________
I'm lithe and fierce as a tiger


Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:22 pm
Profile
Director

Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:44 pm
Posts: 1167
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
Sight & Sound hasn't updated their site yet with the features it had in '02(you could see every person that voted for a title, see what ballot every critic/director submitted)

but here is the rest of the critics top 50 they posted

11. Battleship Potemkin
Sergei Eisenstein, 1925 (63 votes)
12. L’Atalante
Jean Vigo, 1934 (58 votes)
13. Breathless
Jean-Luc Godard, 1960 (57 votes)
14. Apocalypse Now
Francis Ford Coppola, 1979 (53 votes)
15. Late Spring
Ozu Yasujiro, 1949 (50 votes)
16. Au hasard Balthazar
Robert Bresson, 1966 (49 votes)
17= Seven Samurai
Kurosawa Akira, 1954 (48 votes)
17= Persona
Ingmar Bergman, 1966 (48 votes)
19. Mirror
Andrei Tarkovsky, 1974 (47 votes)
20. Singin’ in the Rain
Stanley Donen & Gene Kelly, 1951 (46 votes)
21= L’avventura
Michelangelo Antonioni, 1960 (43 votes)
21= Le Mépris
Jean-Luc Godard, 1963 (43 votes)
21= The Godfather
Francis Ford Coppola, 1972 (43 votes)
24= Ordet
Carl Dreyer, 1955 (42 votes)
24= In the Mood for Love
Wong Kar-Wai, 2000 (42 votes)
26= Rashomon
Kurosawa Akira, 1950 (41 votes)
26= Andrei Rublev
Andrei Tarkovsky, 1966 (41 votes)
28. Mulholland Dr.
David Lynch, 2001 (40 votes)
29= Stalker
Andrei Tarkovsky, 1979 (39 votes)
29= Shoah
Claude Lanzmann, 1985 (39 votes)
31= The Godfather Part II
Francis Ford Coppola, 1974 (38 votes)
31= Taxi Driver
Martin Scorsese, 1976 (38 votes)
33. Bicycle Thieves
Vittoria De Sica, 1948 (37 votes)
34. The General
Buster Keaton & Clyde Bruckman, 1926 (35 votes)
35= Metropolis
Fritz Lang, 1927 (34 votes)
35= Psycho
Alfred Hitchcock, 1960 (34 votes)
35= Jeanne Dielman, 23 quai du Commerce 1080 Bruxelles
Chantal Akerman, 1975 (34 votes)
35= Sátántangó
Béla Tarr, 1994 (34 votes)
39= The 400 Blows
François Truffaut, 1959 (33 votes)
39= La dolce vita
Federico Fellini, 1960 (33 votes)
41. Journey to Italy
Roberto Rossellini, 1954 (32 votes)
42= Pather Panchali
Satyajit Ray, 1955 (31 votes)
42= Some Like It Hot
Billy Wilder, 1959 (31 votes)
42= Gertrud
Carl Dreyer, 1964 (31 votes)
42= Pierrot le fou
Jean-Luc Godard, 1965 (31 votes)
42= Play Time
Jacques Tati, 1967 (31 votes)
42= Close-Up
Abbas Kiarostami, 1990 (31 votes)
48= The Battle of Algiers
Gillo Pontecorvo, 1966 (30 votes)
48= Histoire(s) du cinéma
Jean-Luc Godard, 1998 (30 votes)
50= City Lights
Charlie Chaplin, 1931 (29 votes)
50= Ugetsu monogatari
Mizoguchi Kenji, 1953 (29 votes)
50= La Jetée
Chris Marker, 1962 (29 votes)

http://www.bfi.org.uk/news/50-greatest-films-all-time


Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:58 pm
Profile
Assistant Director
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:09 pm
Posts: 916
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
"Vertigo" is quickly joining "GoodFellas" as my choice for most overrated film of all time. Honestly, apart from the title sequence and the dream sequence, I don't see what's so special about it. Yes, like all of Hitchcock's films, it's technically flawless... but technique alone can't completely endear one to a film. And I still have trouble buying Scottie's transformation into an obsessive creep (it's Jimmy Stewart, for fuck's sake! The guy couldn't be unpleasant if he tried!) :|


Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:53 pm
Profile
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
Told ya :-)
Rob


Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:54 am
Director
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:35 am
Posts: 1455
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
Vertigo isn't even Hitchcock's best film. Man with a Movie Camera seems like an odd choice. I've never seen The Searchers. The other seven are solid films, although 2001 leaves me a bit cold.

I'm a little surprised to see Tokyo Story top the directors' list, but I notice Ebert writing about how he'll select one film by Hitchcock or one by Kurosawa, and the Ozu consensus centers around Tokyo Story. It's certainly a very well directed film.

The directors need to see more silent films. I have two silent films in my top 10 list and they're the same two the critics have, but I have The Passion of Joan of Arc higher than Sunrise.

_________________
Evil does not wear a bonnet!--Mr. Tinkles


Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:57 am
Profile
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
Ebert says a few words about it.

And here's a piece by Jim Emerson, written on the eve of the list's release and a few additional words appended about the new list itself.

Personally, there are several films that I consider to be better than Vertigo, and Citizen Kane is one of them. That said, I've seen Kane many more times and I'm much more familiar with it both as a film and as a significant guidepost of cinematic history. This may be a good time to study up on Hitchcock's mad masterpiece.


Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:27 am
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
Jim Emerson again, discussing the lack of comedies in the new list.


Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:48 am
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
JamesKunz wrote:
Man with a Video Camera? Jesus Christ that movie is like a film school experiment. I like the directors' list more


It's brilliant, but I can't say I'm the least bit surprised you aren't it's biggest fan.

As for Vertigo, I agree with what Ebert said about not seeing the movie's greatness: "You're insufficiently evolved as a moviegoer."


Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:33 am
Director

Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:44 pm
Posts: 1167
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
Quote:
I'm a little surprised to see Tokyo Story top the directors' list, but I notice Ebert writing about how he'll select one film by Hitchcock or one by Kurosawa, and the Ozu consensus centers around Tokyo Story. It's certainly a very well directed film.


This is a bigger surprise to me than Vertigo topping the critics list(since it came very close to doing that in 2002)

The directors list only started in '92, but Kane topped it by a large margin that year & in '02 as well. And Tokyo Story wasn't even in the top 10 in the directors list those years!

I wouldn't be surprised if Tokyo Story topped the critics list as well in '22, its pattern is sort of similar to Vertigo(Tokyo Story only got on the list in '92, it now is a staple there near the top, and judging by its place on the directors list, its stature is still growing. '82 was the first year Vertigo got on the list, and it became the consenus 'best' Hitchcock film, like Story became the consensus best Ozu in '92)

not sure how I feel about S&S expanding their voting base so much this year (going from 144 to 846 is a bit extreme imo, I kinda liked how selective they were, in a way it made the list even more of a bigger deal. I can imagine it will be an even higher number of voters in 2022 - maybe JB will get a vote then as well)

The list also shows how divided voters were on whether Godfather 1 or Godfather 2 was better(combined it would have been near the top of the list, like they did in '02)


Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:14 pm
Profile
Gaffer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:22 pm
Posts: 10
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
This is amazing. I've long thought "Vertigo" was the superior film. It's been my favorite movie since I was ten years old - along with "The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers."

This has been a very good week for movies : D


Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:31 pm
Profile
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
We had a lot of great discussion around this list a few years back...lots of new faces since then. Would love to see people start tackling the list and adding their thoughts. Some truly great films. And of course the list isn't perfect, none ever is but it's a great "water cooler" list for films fans like us to start debating the films. Anyone up for digging a little deeper again?


And dear Mr. Holloway, I'm sure you couldn't wait to celebrate. I fell in love with Vertigo as the behest of you sir, so I'm not all that disappointed, even if the film may not have been my personal choice.


Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:14 pm
Second Unit Director

Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:19 pm
Posts: 349
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
I love The Searchersand think its a great movie, but even a John Wayne fan like me couldn't put it in the top 20. That ranking surprises me.

Not that I care who's number 1, but I like Kane better than Vertigo by quite a bit. I haven't ever seen Tokyo Story.


Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:17 pm
Profile
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
I think Kane is more accomplished than Vertigo on every level, including an entertainment level. I don't even consider Vertigo the best movie of 1958, or even the 2nd best movie of 1958. The problem with Vertigo is that it assumes the viewer will be completely taken in by the intensity of Stewart's trauma. Personally, I have yet to meet anyone who can take it all that seriously, except as pulp.

And Tokyo Story is long, long, overlong, long, and way too long. I've seen at least 4 Ozus that are far, far superior. I think canonization doesn't celebrate greatness so much as distort it. The sight and sound list may be more dignified than, say, the imdb 250, but it seems just as lazy and pointless to me.


Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:06 am
Critic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 5888
Location: Easton, MD
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
MGamesCook wrote:
I think Kane is more accomplished than Vertigo on every level, including an entertainment level. I don't even consider Vertigo the best movie of 1958, or even the 2nd best movie of 1958. The problem with Vertigo is that it assumes the viewer will be completely taken in by the intensity of Stewart's trauma. Personally, I have yet to meet anyone who can take it all that seriously, except as pulp.

And Tokyo Story is long, long, overlong, long, and way too long. I've seen at least 4 Ozus that are far, far superior. I think canonization doesn't celebrate greatness so much as distort it. The sight and sound list may be more dignified than, say, the imdb 250, but it seems just as lazy and pointless to me.


Pointless? Come on man, lists are fun!

_________________
I'm lithe and fierce as a tiger


Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:09 am
Profile
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
Lists are great when they're useful guides; Sight and Sound just tells us what we already knew. What if there was a rule that no movie could make the list over two consecutive decades? Now that would be interesting.


Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:18 am
Critic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 5888
Location: Easton, MD
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
MGamesCook wrote:
Lists are great when they're useful guides; Sight and Sound just tells us what we already knew. What if there was a rule that no movie could make the list over two consecutive decades? Now that would be interesting.


The lists change a great deal, and thus are a good way to track certain films' rise and fall in peoples' esteem

_________________
I'm lithe and fierce as a tiger


Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:59 am
Profile
Assistant Second Unit Director

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:49 pm
Posts: 168
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
Put me in the "I don't even think Vertigo is Hitchcock's best movie" group.

I think Lifeboat may actually be his best, though it's been so long since I've seen it I hesitate to be too definative about it.


Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:18 am
Profile
Critic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 5888
Location: Easton, MD
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
dps wrote:
Put me in the "I don't even think Vertigo is Hitchcock's best movie" group.

I think Lifeboat may actually be his best, though it's been so long since I've seen it I hesitate to be too definative about it.


I'm with you on the first statement sometimes, but I don't think I would ever say Lifeboat

_________________
I'm lithe and fierce as a tiger


Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:58 am
Profile
Director

Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:44 pm
Posts: 1167
Post Re: Vertigo tops Citizen Kane!
Quote:
The sight and sound list may be more dignified than, say, the imdb 250, but it seems just as lazy and pointless to me.


Quote:
Lists are great when they're useful guides; Sight and Sound just tells us what we already knew.


if you break down the numbers, there was actually a great amount of variety in the list. the full list just hasn't been released yet.

there were 2,045 different movies that got votes. 846 people submitted ballots. Vertigo was on 191 ballots. That means 655 of the people they polled didn't even have it on their ballot(by the end of the month you'll be able to see every ballot, & every film that was voted for). That's hardly a 'resounding' victory for the greatest film of all time(if you want to view this whole thing that way)

And Tokyo Story got 48 votes from directors, putting it at the top of their list. 358 directors voted. So 310 directors didn't even have it on their ballot.

looking forward to seeing what Woody Allen, Quentin Tarantino, Guillermo del Toro, Martin Scorsese, Michael Mann, Francis Ford Coppola, Mike Leigh voted for, I'm sure there will be some lesser known gems among them.


Last edited by calvero on Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:01 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forum/DivisionCore.
Translated by Xaphos © 2007, 2008, 2009 phpBB.fr